Site Discussions

Thanks for the correction, Sue. I’ve tweaked the text.

A guy that served as a selectman with me years ago - as old then as I am now - once said: “The older I get, the less sure I am of anything.”

Thank you for a thoughtful and balanced piece, sympathetic to all the interests and emotions in play.

I ask my progressive friends: Take away the guns, which are there just as a symbolic display, how is this any different that Occupy Wall Street?

Hines is outside Burns, OR. Bend is further west on US 20 by a couple hours. Bend has a logging history similar to Hines but has grown away from its conserative roots through bustling tourism,  small business, high tech and craft beer.

I grew up in New England,  spent my childhood hiking the LT and summers on Stratton mtn-Grout Pond and the whites.  The current struggles in OR certainly are similar to the dynamics in New England between ‘the old way’ and the ‘yuppie-environmentalists.’

A thoughtful piece to consider before hurling verbal grenades at the “crazies” ____ fill in the blank on a definition of who that is.

Don’t feel too bad for those guys, they’ve been feeding at the public trough for many, many years. Even though Papa Bundy pays less to lease public land than he would to lease comparable private land, he still owes well over $1 million to the public treasury and shows no sign of ever paying.

All they want is the ability to repeat the abuse the land suffered at the hands of ranchers in the distant past. they forget, or maybe don’t think, they’re part of a larger country and that land belongs to all of us - even people who aren’t like them.

Many years ago I worked for a forest products company in northern New England, a company that was liquidating its timber. Because they cut every acre that was worth cutting, those acres haven’t supported any loggers or mill workers for decades. How much better it would have been if the woodland had been in public ownership and managed responsibly. The acreage may not have supported as many families as it did when logging was in full swing, but it would have supported some for the long-term.

Public ownership of woodland in the east is a direct result of the cut-and-get-out abuse of private owners. A primary reason much of the public domain in the west was retained was that same abuse. And, don’t forget that huge acreages of western land were essentially given away as subsidies to corporation that were building railroads. Those acres are now either ranches or corporate timberlands. Much of that timberland was apparently overcut resulting in the mills becoming dependent on publicly owned timber to keep operating.

While I sympathize with the individual loggers or small ranchers, many of them don’t seem to recognize the real root of their problems.

I sometimes say my “curse” in life is that I can always see both sides of an issue.  It’s not entirely true and I seldom lack for a solid opinion on things, but it’s always nice to see a fellow traveler sorting out issues like this.  Excellent writing/thinking/probing, David.

Every morning my crow(s) call me from a nearby tree.  They are waiting for scraps of bread or other treats. Sometimes I give them pieces of meat trimmings which they choose first.  Once, by mistake, a few pieces of broccoli slipped in.  They are still on the ground.

The problem is that both sides are wrongheaded and no one is giving common sense a chance, not that it ever gets a chance anywhere. The following story gives a little deeper background into the distrust that they have for the Fed.

SD Stockgrowers note fire double standard

“SD Stockgrowers Association supports full compensation to the ranchers who were harmed by the Pautre Fire, and believe that liability should be applied to the U.S. Forest Service the way the Hammonds were held liable for setting that fire.” - S.D. Stockgrowers Association President Bill Kluck

The South Dakota Stockgrowers Association sent letters this week to congressional delegates, the U.S. Attorney General’s office and the South Dakota Attorney General’s office questioning what they call “egregiously unbalanced response of federal land management agencies” and supporting the claims South Dakota ranchers made for compensation after the 2013 Pautre Fire burned nearly 10,000 acres of federal and private land.

“There is a big double standard being applied in these government land agencies,” said Stockgrowers President Bill Kluck. “We cannot support the use of terrorism laws against a family ranch while forest service staff are just allowed to go about their day. We’re not questioning who set these fires, but we’re very worried about how the law is being used.”

The 2013 Pautre Fire in South Dakota burned over 10,000 acres, about 3,000 of which was federally owned land and the rest was privately owned land. The U.S. Forest Service has refused to pay any damages and no employees have been charged with wrongdoing. Private landowners and ranchers affected by the blaze filed suit against the U.S. Forest Service last week after their claims for damage compensation were denied. The U.S. Forest Service ruled that the agency was not responsible for damages even though they intentionally set the fire, against recommendations from local ranchers and weather forecasters.

In the letter, President of the Association, Bill Kluck stated, “The kind of unchecked decision-making authority and lack of accountability from federal land management agencies as seen in the Pautre Fire, can and will be applied to other situations and likely at the expense of independent livestock producers and private property owners.”

SD Stockgrowers drew comparison to current situation in Oregon where a father and son have been sentenced to five years in federal prison after a prescribed burn on their private property burned less than 140 acres of federal property. The family is required to pay $400,000 in damages and was prosecuted under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, which carries a minimum 5-year sentence.

“SD Stockgrowers Association supports full compensation to the ranchers who were harmed by the Pautre Fire, and believe that liability should be applied to the U.S. Forest Service the way the Hammonds were held liable for setting that fire.”

“South Dakota Stockgrowers Association is very concerned about the lack of accountability and responsibility being applied to federal agencies in one case while private individuals are held to a much higher, and completely different level of responsibility in the other,” said Kluck.

“We are asking that our congressional delegates, the South Dakota Attorney General and U.S. Attorney’s office take a look at these cases to see how we can correct this injustice to the Hammond family and use their case to make sure that our South Dakota ranchers are able to hold the Forest Service accountable and liable for their actions on the Pautre Fire.”

–South Dakota Stockgrowers Association

As usual more thought provoking stuff from Northern Woodlands, keep it coming.
Thanks
Larry

The article below tells a deeper story too.  Also, Mormonism is involved with the Bundy clan so we have A LOT to think about with this Oregon saga.  Good idea to discuss all of this with maturing teenagers!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/01/07/1466961/-Paiute-tribal-chair-Don-t-tell-me-any-of-these-ranchers

You stated: “What we have here is a struggle to find a balance between individual liberty and broader social organization – it’s basically the essence of American democracy.” I disagree. Just like private landowners, state and federal agencies manage land for various goals and purposes. This is about how land can and should be managed by one or more federal agencies. I don’t see how that affects individual liberty. I can see how it might affect the economics of ranching. Those are different issues.

Dave, there is civil unrest due to the constant hacking away at individual rights by the Federal Government. Each generation accepts more, and soon your freedom has vanished. The people are tired of it and want it to stop. They can go to the ballot box, but that’s all rigged. Then they have their guns, at least for now. There aren’t many choices left.

Deer don’t seem to be particularly disturbed by Kubota Orange either.  If I see a deer while driving my tractor in the woods, the deer will stare until I get quite close before running.  If I stop and get off the tractor they run immediately. 

What would happen if I drove a Ford blue tractor; would they run sooner or is a tractor such an alien object in the woods that the deer does not recognize it as a potential threat?

Dave, you’re a master and a pleasure to read, and I hold this self-evident truth in my (albeit dwindling) portfolio of unassailable convictions. Thanks for keeping on. We all benefit.

Dave, your last sentence sums it up in a nutshell. I believe too that it is more skill and woodsmanship that kills deer than the newest camo pattern. My dad killed more deer than I can count and never wore anything but red and green. I believe he was just that good, but of course I’m biased! Great article as usual.

I raced in the Maiden days of that event and really enjoyed it.

I took a trip to Sapanta, Romania this fall.  While waiting for a minibus, I was delighted to watch two crows dropping walnuts onto the sidewalk below them to break the nuts open.  When this sometimes failed, they would drop them on the road hoping to have more luck. The Romanian man beside me could not speak English, but we both marveled at their intelligence and ability to come up with new solutions to old problems.

From the description of its voice, I think “My Crow” is probably a raven. :D

I located a wild hive hanging in the trees near my studio (in the woods) late in the summer. I thought it was Honey Bees, but the hive was so high I couldn’t quite tell. They were the same size but seemed darker in color.

I watched it for months and in the fall we had more rains than seemed normal and I stopped seeing bees frequenting it. The rains seemed to be making it deteriorate and then I saw no bees at all.

What would make the bees leave this nest?

Once I realized this beautiful nest was abandon, falling apart and the comb was becoming exposed, I cut the branch that it was hanging from and now it hangs from the ceiling in my studio.

Silly question but - Is there any chance if I take it back out in the spring a colony would patch the damage and use it again? It is amazingly beautiful (as you know). Would a new colony return to this sight? How long do they live in a wild hive? Mysterious to me why they would leave this hive…

I hope you will reply. Thank you!

So happy I stumbled upon this… Love crows!!! Every morning when I take the dog out, the symphony of hundreds of crows chattering away makes me smile.  Always wonder what they are chatting about… I enjoy the articles…

We have lived in this little neighborhood for a little over 40 years. In that time the area crows have developed from staying to the outskirts of the neighborhood to now actually nesting right in our back yard now and spend a fair amount of time on the lawn even when we are sitting out.